Make the right decision (Douglas Young)

Instead of your usual rhetoric Douglas, try telling us how independence will be good for Scotland but most of all good for Shetland.

I have asked you this question time and time again both here and on the Shetland News web site. Your your lack of an answer is inconspicuous to say the least, to both me and all who read these columns.

This is now your thread so please reveal yourself and answers please.

“Look around you at all the other countries which have become independent from Westminster since WW2. Has any one of them ever wanted to return to being ruled from England? Think on! Just look long and hard.” Which one would you like to live in Colin? Which one is now a true democracy? Which one has not had a partition or civil war? Which one is not a dictatorship or violent police state? Which one practises basic human rights where women are safe and protected by law? Great argument Colin, now answer my question. Just a point for the ignorant, they were never ruled by England, I think you perhaps mean Britain Colin.

Do YES Shetland and/or “Better Together” support the “Our Islands, Our Future” campaign by the island councils?

What are your policies regarding autonomy for the isles?

We need to know.

Martyn, Douglas advocates independence he also advocates the YESNP, but he never says why.
He has submitted many letters here with the Shetland time and on the Shetland news website encouraging people to vote yes , but he never says why we should vote yes.

Once he gave three or four reasons why independence would be good for Shetland but put no flesh on his claims by saying why these thing will be good for us. I say why YESNP policy will be detrimental to Scotland and Shetland and that is debating.

One great example of this is Douglas said the YESNP’s green energy policy will be good for Shetland but did not clarify by saying why. I say the YESNP’s green energy policy has failed already and the proof is there for all to see. This year Scottish wind farms have mostly been producing up to 80% less power than predicted by Salmond and Co because of the fine weather. Then I argue that the only way Salmond and the YESNP could possibly get wind production up to what they want it to be is to litter places like Shetland with turbines and interconnector cables. Then I back that claim up with they will do this as Burradale in a nearly constantly windy Shetland has probably proved to be the words most productive wind farm and Salmond knows this.

Douglas should put his money where his mouth is and disprove that but he does not, mainly because he can’t. That Martyn is how I take my case to the undecided I don’t just make statements I back them up with facts or theories.

You say “you don’t care, you just want different” I ask you at what cost, because if it does not work we cannot go back. Martyn if you want change don’t drag the rest of us with you into an uncertain future go live somewhere different.

Colin,

Northern Islanders have had 540-odd years of Scottish administration, they’ve only had 306 years from the English, I’d say that puts Shetlanders first in the queue for autonomy.

The 540-year track record, alas, isn’t inspiring, especially, where democracy and local autonomy are concerned; quite the reverse, indeed the only ray of sunshine for islanders during the entire period came from south of the border from an Englishman – William Ewart Gladstone – in the form of the Crofters’ Holdings(Scotland) Act, 1886.

if Alex Salmond would stop trying to “outwit” the islanders and grasp the obvious opportunity of allowing the isles the autonomy to develop themselves as a “gateway” to Scandinavia (to the benefit of Scotland) he would bind the isles forever to Scotland and gain a large number of local votes for his independence campaign.

Forgive the political “buzz-wordery” however that’s a “win-win situation”!

Colin, about time for a history lesson, since WW2! Perhaps you should check your facts before displaying such a lack of knowledge. Canada, N Z and Australia were independent nations long before WW2… With regard to India, have you heard of the cast system? Be female and take a bus ride, equality under the law, you must be joking!! With regard to Westminster, just how many Scottish MPs and Prime Ministers have sat in Westminster? I hardly think us Scots were underrepresented in the corridors of power, certainly no better or worse than say the North of England peoples or The Mainlanders or The Welsh. Anglophobia and anti-European dogma, spout on, you do argument down well, Salmond would be proud! With regard to sectarianism in Scotland, try a Celtic / Rangers match and get in the wrong stand!! As for Nuclear basses, being exclusive to Scotland, try Devonport, Scampton, Portsmouth or any other NATO, RAF or RN base. Ignorance is such bliss in the irrational and fallacious arguments The Nationalists and Yes lobby tend to use.

Well well Martyn, I can see why the English would want to banish you back to Scotland.

“Its more about Scotland than Shetland, I don’t care, I just want Different, what’s in it for me, I am fed up”.

Then you have the nerve to say you are fed up with this selfish behavior.

If that is the kind of egocentric attitude you portrayed in England there is no wonder you were told to go home.

Its definitely the reason I said you should go live somewhere different.

,

So i am not welcome in the British Isles. So banished to Forvik Isle am i then ?.. Well Gordon the Hulk Harmer. I cant take you seriously, now behave or i will set Stuart Hill on you..http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_State_of_Forvik

What a load of utter rubbish Colin. You stated “ruled by Westminster” that simply was not true, a simple lie. I have made no indication as to what I regard you as, I do not know you well enough to have an opinion, but I do not accept a dishonest argument to try and justify an opinion, one which is truly subjective, such as yours. Distorting of history and truth does your argument down and discredits yourself and the Yes campaign.
You end ” All I know is that I have a wish to live in a Scotland which is Governed by Scots, from Edinburgh. By our people and for our people. What’s wrong with that? Why not Colin, just try, “All I know is that I have a wish to live in Shetland which is Governed by Shetlanders, from Lerwick. By our people and for our people. What’s wrong with that?” Whoops sounds a bit familiar!

So, at no time in the past, have any of these countries ever been governed (or ruled) by or for the benefit of the British Government in Westminster? What then was the “Commonwealth”? (read “it’s yours really but we’ll have it”). Does that sound familiar too? The difference between my dream and yours, Ian, is that mine is on offer and on the table for a free vote in September next year. Yours will never be.

Scott, “If Westminster had wanted Shetland to have more autonomy then they would of given it to us by now” the same could be said for Hollyrood.

The SIC have only just begun our campaign for more autonomy so in reality neither have been in a position to grant it.

The diddle e donk who made the gaff about the commonwealth was a nobody trying to score points just as you have tried to score points with your little remark “If Westminster had wanted Shetland to have more autonomy”.

In response to Ian Tinkler’s last post to Colin Hunter, just in case anyone is misled, the only position the Yes campaign has in this referendum campaign, as I understand it, is that the voters should vote “yes” in a year’s time. Beyond that, the campaign has no position on anything, including autonomy for Shetland. It can’t have: its only raison d’etre is to affirm the case for independence. I speak as a member of no political party but as someone who did attend the launch of the local Yes campaign.

Robert, you seem to be at odds with Scott Miller on autonomy for Shetland would you like to enlarge on your statement.

Scott, what do have to say on this as Robert seems to have thrown a spanner in the works of the Yes campaign. Unless of course there is a distinct difference between the Yes campaign on the whole and Yes Shetland.

Scott, what John Robertson says is true. if Westminster had wanted us to have more autonomy they would have given us it by now, is a random thing to say. If Hollyrood wanted the same thing they have had chances to show this by now, their biggest chance was during the issuing of the contract for the lifeline ferry service.

By involving the SIC they would have had input from the Shetlanders perspective and maybe we would not have controversial and unsatisfactory service we have been lumbered with by the SNP.

Happy to enlarge on what I said, Gordon, and to stand at least partially corrected. I have just checked the Yes Scotland website and I see that there is indeed within that a statement of support for greater powers for the various Scottish regions – but only after independence, which is the point I was trying to make. For your information, the website states the following (see http://www.yesscotland.net/undecided_centralbelt):

“…we believe that bringing power closer to the people through independence will not stop in Edinburgh, and that with full powers to shape our own government and structures, we can ensure much more powerful communities and regional authorities – for example, through enshrining powers and rights in a written constitution.”

There is therefore no conflict between Scott and I. More powers for Shetland indeed – but a topic to be addressed only once independence has been achieved. That is the starting point for any real and lasting change.

“Free beer tomorrow” from Robert Sim.

May I just clarify that I have nothing whatsoever to do with the “Yes” campaign, other than my intention to vote yes in September next year. I was merely expressing a personal opinion that Ians desire for Shetland to become a Crown Dependency will never happen. Or at least it is highly unlikely. The vote for Scottish independence, however, will happen. It has taken many years of campaigning to get this far, and I find it is a shame that so many people are of the opinion that we “can’t make it on our own” because we’re too small. How many countries are there, with fewer people than us that seem to do quite nicely thank you? Countries that seemingly have less going for them than we ourselves do? I will say once more, that this is the chance of a lifetime, a chance many people who have long since gone to their graves dreamt about but never saw. It would be a shame if we wasted it.

Calls for additional powers and resources to be given to island communities, regardless of the outcome of the 2014 independence referendum, have been welcomed by Scottish Secretary Michael Moore.

In a speech at Sabhal Mor Ostaig college on Skye, Michael Moore emphasised support for home rule within the UK and the transfer of more powers to local communities.

Mr Moore said: “I don’t see devolution as being about the simple transfer of power from one central parliament to another.”

“I want individuals and communities empowered too.

“So that, where possible, decisions are taken by those directly affected by them by those who best understand the challenges they face. Power should be pushed outwards as well as downwards.

“In the central belt, even now there is more government money being invested there than any other part of Scotland; the new Forth bridge, Glasgow / Edinburgh road and rail corridor, Prestwick air freight center.”

Blah Blah Blah.

Every year over 25 million is spent providing a link to the mainland of a country most on this website continually slag off and clearly despise. £25 million for a population of 25,000. My home town has the same polulation. Boy what they would give for that amount of money. And that is just the ferry. Why does shetland foster so many new businesses. Of course the haters will focus totally on the rosey view that Shetlanders as special and more entrepreneurial (they have to be, they live on the edge), but maybe, just maybe, it’s because the council and Enterprise companies as rather good at giving out money. The amount of support given to Shetland firms would make the blood boil of those entrepreneurs in my home town who struggle to get a penny from their enterprise companies as there is no. Shetland has the highest standard of living, all subsidised and yet this lot still have the chip on the should.

I find it tiresome. The referrence to vikings and years of oppression from Scotland and blah blah blah

Shetland is only part of the UK because of the rest of Scotland. There is noe Shetland and Scotland. Shetland IS Scotland. An amazing and special part of it but part of an amalgam of special and amazing bits, all as special in their own way.

To equate us with rapists on buses in India and to imply if independant we would degrade to such a level is quite frankly pitiful. It also tells us you view this country as merely a colony like all those you mention. Says it all really.

Mr McPhail, that £25 million provides a 210 mile road link to Aberdeen which we pay dearly to use. A 1.5 mile bridge over the Forth will cost in excess of £ 2.5 billion to build let alone the maintenance costs for its and the old bridge over the next years and it is free to use.

Your home town on the mainland has thousands of miles of roads to all parts of the UK plus their upkeep, so I recon you have more than £ 25 million spent on your little community.

If you had not noticed, what you call Scotland’s oil comes ashore on our door step and that oil needs infrastructure. Hence the reason Shetland fosters so many new businesses to provide that infrastructure to allow you to claim it as Scotland’s oil.

That infrastructure needs materials to operate; those materials arrive here on a £ 25 million, 210 mile link to the mainland. Once again just so you can claim that it is Scotland oil and therefore Scotland’s revenue to finance independence.

You say “Shetland Is Scotland” therefore all the money spent on Shetland is spent on Scotland so what are you mumping about, you can’t have it both ways. But then again that is indicative of the YESNP you want your cake and boy do you want to eat.

As far as your last twisted paragraph goes I sincerely hope Ian Tinkler deals with you in his own special way.

John McPhail is right about Scotland being “an amalgam of special bits” however the rest of what he writes is, not to put too fine a point on it, tosh.

As to whether Shetland is “part of Scotland” we need, first, to know what he means by that.

Shetland is arguably less “part of Scotland” than Scotland is “part of England” – there is after all, 100 miles of sea between Shetland and Caithness – or if we go down the ancient language route, Scotland might be considered “part of Wales” (e.g. ABERdeen, ABERystwyth), the remaining vestige of the ancient Britannic people of “Great Britain”.

I’m not arguing for or against Scottish independence, here, simply pointing out that we need to know what “part of Scotland means” before we make assertions about what is “part” or “not part” of what.

John, you say “I find it tiresome. The reference to Vikings and years of oppression from Scotland and blah blah blah”

As those in the Yes camp use the same old same oppression from England argument, you seem to be saying this argument being identical is also tiresome.
Not that anyone on here has ever said such a thing.

Thank you, its good to hear someone from your side of the fence admitting this.

Mr Adams let’s get a couple things straight. First, you’re misquoting the saying in question. According to unimpeachable sources, it’s not how many angels can dance on the head of a needle, it’s how many can do it on the point of a needle — which, of course, makes more sense.

I used to think this was just a pointless question that scholastic theologians had in the middle ages. However, I have grown to see that it is really asking what is the nature of reality. Do angels have corporeal ontology or do they have only a spiritual ontology. So let me open this up. Philosophy is generally not my thing so I am interested in basically lurking and seeing how y’all will treat it.

Na don’t bother I am just taking the mickey, lol, smiley face.

Brian,

The reason why I keep roding on about it is because people like Steve Laughton and you keep bringing it up and roding on about it and when I look into what you say I find your pro-status quo arguments don’t stack up.

Clive, Stephen, don’t blame me for your impending breakdowns, it’s Brian and Bill Adams who started it this time (as Steve Laughton started the last round).

There are “twa’rtree” reasons why I don’t take it to the International Legal Office:

1. I’m looking for fair treatment for the isles taking account of their history and culture, not to give the whole thing back to Norway, so I regard legal action
as a last resort. The UK and Scottish governments are auditioning their “siren songs” just now and we need to see what comes out of that first, before we worry about legal action.

2. Should legal action ultimately become necessary it would be with the support of the “islands’ people” in line with their “right to self-determination” and I would expect the SIC to pursue it; they have both a huge interest and access to the the necessary legal and other resources as well as the ability to determine the level of local support for such action.

It should be noted however that a retired lady from Kilchrenan, in darkest Argyll, has successfully pursued a complaint to the UN that the UK (and Scottish) government(s) are in breach of the Aarhus Convention for, in short, rail-roading wind power developments through without adequate consultation so the minnows can bite back (The Independent, last week).

Breaking news; the latest YOUGOV poll puts support for Independence at 29% whilst support for the union has increased to 59% (with 10% unsure).

This gives the NO campaign an impressive 30 point lead.

This comes after a terrible summer for the Nationalists; from the revelation that “Labour for Independence” is nothing but an SNP front to the embarrassing news that YES Scotland paid a supposedly “independent” academic to write an article supporting Independence and then pretended to know nothing about it.

It seems that yet more lies and deceit coming from YESNP Scotland is fooling nobody.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-vote-hardens-up-to-59-1-3070088

Brian,

I like that one, very droll!

Stuart Hill, as Steward of Forvik, may be able to arrange that for himself however I’m not on his Foreign Office staff and I don’t have “a plan” of any kind. What I am is a Shetlander who enjoys debating issues of the day, especially, those relating to the well-being of my island home.

By participating in debates I have learned a great deal and tend to comment mostly when I notice something appears not to “stack up”.

As you keep referring to Mr Hill I assume you’re suggesting that because I commented recently on one of his colourful court appearances, I am somehow in league with him in his campaign? I am not, I was simply pointing out some “interesting comparisons” between Lord Pentland’s judgement and the (your) article in question as well as a few historical statements which appeared not to “stack up”.

My main concern relates to the possibility that, as a result of this judgement, Lord Pentland’s questionable (IMHO) historical statements may be used as guidance in future cases despite apparent conflict, not only with your own article but also with other with fairly well-established history when he (Lord Pentland) had actually refused to allow input from historians.

I am not and never have been a member of any political party or lobby group nor am I (politically) beholden to anyone. I do however strongly support the island councils’ “Our Islands, Our Future” initiative which has the potential not only to transform the islands but also to bring major benefits to Scotland/UK through improved relations and trade with Scandinavia, especially, important should the UK opt to leave the EU.

Shetland’s Viking history is the core from which such benefits could flow so when I see politicians and/or lobby groups denying or falsely rubbishing it it suggests they are propelled by short-term greed and a crude desire to continue wielding power over the isles which, alas, is consistent with islanders’ experience of the past 500+ years.

Robert, Ian is not looking back with any kind of glasses, he and I unlike you and those like you have learned the lessons of the past. They are there to be learned from and are extremely relevant when a nation intends to go down the independence road.

You also have to look forward but minus the rose tinted glasses which is something else we do and you don’t. You and those like you when looking in either direction have both blind fold and blinkers firmly in place.

Breaking news, more and more people are making the right decision, latest poll puts YES vote ahead. http://www.newsnetscotland.com

David I Smith, the survey you quote was conducted for the YESNP by PanelBase and reported by Newsnet. YouGov published the poll I related to, now out of the two polls’ I know which one I would believe.

PanelBase is an online survey panel operated by Dipsticks Research Ltd., based in the United Kingdom. Members of PanelBase receive cash in exchange for their online survey participation, however additional bonus prize draw entries are also often provided.

So people who take part in their survey get paid to do so, I don’t think this makes for a credible survey from a random sample of people.

Newsnet are a pro YESNP, pro independence news media organisation. This is what “auldacquaintance” who runs a pro independence blog has to say about Newsnet.

“Auldacquaintance” “I am not a member of any political party. I am however a strong supporter of Scots Independence. Any views which I express in this Blog are purely my own. We on the Independence side of the debate have to make sure that we report accurately, and we get the positive information out there. We have plenty to work with what we do not need is doubts being placed on our own veracity. So please can I ask Newsnet, and indeed any other pro independence site to stick to the facts, and if we make mistakes, then own up to them!”

YouGov have proven that its opinion polls are most accurate when compared to its competitors and in particular that its online methodology is more accurate than traditional polling methods. For example, YouGov has contended that its opinion polls in recent UK elections have been consistently more accurate than traditional opinion pollsters who repeatedly overestimate the Labour vote This pattern was evident during the United Kingdom general election 2005 campaign, when most traditional polls reported Labour’s support in the range from 38 to 41%, compared with the 36% it achieved on polling day. In contrast, YouGov’s nine polls during the final three weeks of the campaign all showed Labour on 36 or 37%, although gave the most accurate forecast in their final poll before the election.

To put it in plain British I truly believe your poll is a typical YESNP lie.

OK John, “de jure” sovereignty is by definition sovereignty as recognised in
International Law . If you have difficulty in accepting that I would be most interested in hearing how you define the concept.

And I know indeed just which opinion polls Gordon Harmer chooses to believe !
But I note that Gordon coyly omits to mention that the YouGov poll he quotes was in fact commissioned by the Devo Plus group – not exactly a disinterested
party !
Interestingly the Devo Plus chairman is quoted as saying that an “unexpected”result in the findings was that “only three-quarters of Labour voters plan to vote against independence”. The fact is that there many dyed-in-the wool Labour voters who favour independence over devolution but would never
countenance voting SNP but will be voting “Yes” next year in the Referendum.
If Gordon had bothered to come down to Lerwick for the launch meeting of the
“Yes Shetland” campaign he would have heard a sincere and impassioned speech by Celia Fitzgerald of “Labour for Independence” which certainly struck a cord with me and quite frankly was a much better speech than Blair Jenkins made.

Bill, sorry to be pedantic but a needle has two tips but only one point.

My point is an allusion to the theological question “How many angels can dance on the point of a needle?” Such a question cited to debunk medieval angelology in particular and scholasticism in general. Since angels are non-corporeal and do not occupy space, an infinite number of them could be present at a single “point” (point being the operative word) in space simultaneously.

Get my point?

Bill whatever I omitted to mention does not alter the fact that out of the two polls the one conducted by YouGov is the most credible.

Talking about coyly omitting vital information you forgot to mention that it has been alleged that Celia Fitzgerald (SNP member till end of 2012) is part of a conspiracy to infiltrate the Labour Party to support the deception that some Labour Party members support independence.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/fitzgerald-fuels-row-over-labour-front-for-snp-1-3029536

That Bill, is why I didn’t bother coming to listen to her (ha ha) “sincere and impassioned speech.” Her speech was the same old, no guarantees, no answers YESNP rhetoric as the rest of them.

Had she come to tell me how much pension I will receive upon retirement and who do I claim it from i.e. Westminster or Hollyrood. If I take part time employment when retired, how much tax will I pay? Does she support lowering corporation tax to attract business to Scotland and will that mean I will pay more income tax to fill the shortfall in tax receipts? I may well have bothered to go hear her but she did not.

Did she give a 100% guarantee that Shetland would have more autonomy if Labour were elected after independence? Did she give a 100% guarantee that when money is short after independence that a Labour government would not force the SIC to spend the cash in the charitable trust on public services? Or that Labour would not litter Shetland with wind farms to meat green energy targets, etc, etc?

One simple answer, No she did not answer any of the above questions and a thousand other unanswered questions about what happens after independence were not answered and have not been answered by her, you or anyone else on the Yes side of the fence.

I would like to return to the point of this thread by attempting to address Gordon’s fairly powerful argument above regarding the unanswered questions about life after independence which he says remain. I acknowledge the apparent strength of Gordon’s point.

Some of the questions Gordon wants answered are economic in nature (eg regarding taxation). They are also very detailed. It seems to me to be clear, however, that no-one can answer detailed economic questions like that until after independence has actually been achieved and a new Scottish government begins to implement its policies and direct the economy. No-one has a crystal ball.

However what is clear to everyone is the state of the present UK economy. We know how much real incomes have fallen recently. We know that living standards will continue to decline in the near future. We know that over the last thirty years the UK’s economy has been based on rewarding the very wealthy and abandoning savers, the old and the sick. We know that the UK government has tried to plug the holes in the economy by cutting funding to local areas.

That is the economy we live with now. We do, however, have the opportunity to do better under an independent government. Since the Scottish economy is in a healthier state than the UK, it seems to me a good opportunity.

Well said Ian. Robert if no one has a crystal ball why is Alex Salmond promising a utopia where Scotland will be a land of milk and honey?

I ask my questions because I want to know what what facts lie behind his promises or should I call them empty promises after what you have just said.

Robert that is twice in one comment that you have actually disproved the YESNP’s own rhetoric.

“It seems to me to be clear, however, that no-one can answer detailed economic questions like that until after independence has actually been achieved and a new Scottish government begins to implement its policies and direct the economy. No-one has a crystal ball.”

So the YESNP are going into this with their Eyes firmly shut Robert! You have to remember that once Scotland is independent there is no vote to get out of it, when it goes belly up. That is why those questions and many more need answering.

In a general election you would not vote for a party with no manifesto, think about it.