They still don’t get it (Ian Selbie)
The independence referendum gets nearer and the semi-illiterate SNP trolls on Facebook Shetland still don’t get it – that dictator Salmond’s financial statements don’t add up according to the independent experts.
The peoples of France/Germany want to leave the Euro while Salmond is desperate to join and further flood Scotland with more immigrants. Where are the jobs, houses etc.
Since Alex Salmond and his mob came to power we don’t live in a democracy as the SNP totally ignores the views of the public. They said they would cease early release for criminals, which has actually got worse, improve hospitals, etc.
So God help the public if the ARI in Aberdeen is a flagship example and a message for the don’t/won’t work in benefits for whatever reason.
With less money after a “yes” vote you will see benefit cuts that will force you into work instead of sponging from the workers who toil every day. I have toned down what I really want to say regarding the spongers.
Ian Selbie
17 Twageos Road,
Lerwick.
Geoff McRobbie
Not a single truth in that entire rant
Douglas Greig Young
Your insults are directed at me and the others on the admin/content writing team at Yes Shetland Mr Selbie.
We work very hard to ensure an open forum for Yes , No and Undecideds on the Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/YesShetland.
As do the Women for Independence and National Collective pages at https://www.facebook.com/womenforindyshetland?fref=ts and https://www.facebook.com/nationalcollectiveshetland respectively.
Much of the tone of your letter would not be acceptable on our page, words like dictator, spongers and flood with immigrants.
We are not nationalists and the SNP nor Mr Salmond are being voted for.
Brian Smith
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Allan Patterson
Well said Ian Selbie. About time decent people get a chance to a read well researched thoughtful article with in-depth insights. It makes a refreshing change.
Hannah Nicholson
As a Yes voter with a degree who doesn’t vote SNP, I find a lot of what you’ve said here incredibly offensive.
Charlie Banham Cullivoe
Tut, Tut Ian… the voice of reason – you think?
Do you honestly believe that (if as you seem to want) there is a ‘No’ vote in September everything will be rosy and David Cameron will be even kinder to the people of Scotland and in particular Shetland?
If so, you are truly deluded – it will get worse MUCH worse
If, (I sincerely hope there is not) there is a ‘No’ Vote, the savage cuts made to date by Cameron et al will seem minuscule in comparison of what is yet to come.
Perhaps you are in a financial position of not having to claim for state benefits, and those of us like you are very fortunate indeed. But to virtually gloat and vent your dissatisfaction on those that are genuinely in dire need of help, is not only morally wrong, it is downright shameful. Granted, there are those who will always ‘milk the system’ and those, and only those should be punished, just as in business, banking etc rich business people like the bankers who bankrupted the UK and were never personally punished for the carnage they caused and yet are allowed to continue to this day- illegally fixing interest rates, mi-selling PPI etc – and only token fines for the banks, but not the individuals at the top of the ladder who perpetrated these crimes. Ian where is your indignation about these injustices against society?
Simple answer I suspect is that the already oppressed welfare claimants are a much easier target to attack and vent your anger
And to use the term ‘Dictator’ to describe Alex Salmond is so far from the truth it is truly pathetic – like him or not, he is the democratically elected leader of the SNP – the party which secured enough enough votes from the Scottish people who knew full well that Alex Salmond, all of his adult life campaigned for an Independent Scotland. We all knew that in the first instance. it was not a secret, it was not lies, he asked for a mandate from the Scottish People, and enough of us gave him that mandate.
He did NOT ‘dictate’ as you imply – he gave us a an opportunity to democratically vote on 18 September if Scotland should be an Independent Country – even David Cameron agreed , and actually sat at the table with Alex Salmond where they both signed the Edinburgh Agreement paving the way for the vote on 18 September. Now it is up to us to vote – not Alex Salmond or any other Politician
I think one would struggle to convince what was dictatorial about that scenario?
C’mon Ian… vote ‘Yes’ You know in your heart it makes sense, because in then you can vote against Alex Salmond and, heaven forbid vote for a Tory instead at the next Scottish General Election?
Who knows Ian your vote may actually ‘DICTATE’ the result?
jody jamieson
where does mr selbie get his facts from . can he guarantee that trolls actually exist and that the ones on face book are semi illiterate .
Mark Stone
A wonderful piece of literature.
I am all for for freedom of expression but to attack people as semi literate trolls because of their political viewpoint seems polarised in the extreme. Dictators assume power usually by force and as Mr Salmond was freely elected and with a majority the term is incorrect, bordering on semi-literate maybe?
There has been a lot in the press over the last 6-12 months about the Yes campaign wanting to remain with Sterling as a currency not join the euro. If the term has been used incorrectly as a contraction of European Union then Salmond desperate to join and further flood Scotland with more immigrants is also incorrect as we are already part of the EU and there are no flood of immigrants at the moment.
As for forcing spongers to work, the UK government is actively working on programmes to achieve the same goal so is the point even relevant.
All in all an ill informed, biased peice of politicised propoganda masquearding as personal opinion.
Chris Dumont
Mr Selbie
Classic Tory (fascist) ideology. Anti-immigrant and anti-poor.
Are the “spongers” you mention, the people who are having to turn to food banks, or food parcels in Shetland, the people on zero-hours contracts, the working poor? Or are they the b(w)ankers taking their huge bonuses home, the corrupt politicians or the aristocracy?
Referring to Salmond as a dictator and saying the SNP don’t listen to the people seems to me to make the mistake of believing that voting Yes is voting for the SNP, which it is not and I think that the Tories care far less about public opinion (just look at fracking).
My fear is that if we vote NO, then we will see a reduction in the Block Grant, and so the poorest will be hit while we are still compelled to spend billions on the obscenity of nuclear weapons.
Ali Inkster
Edinburgh is already reducing our block grant (REBATE) by £20 MILLION/ year so how is a yes vote going to change that?
Chris Dumont
Do you mean Westminster?
A Yes vote would mean independence, and therefore full tax raising powers (and other powers), so we would no longer be dependent (or get) the Block Grant.
Ali Inkster
No I mean Edinburgh.
David Spence
I am confused……..many people seem to think (probably promoted moreso by the ‘ NO Campaign ‘)….that the vote to be held in September this year is for Alex Salmond and the SNP and not for Independence?
Oh, it is for Independence and not for Alex Salmond or the SNP………I am glad we got that cleared up.
Yes folks, it is a vote for Scotland to have greater control of its affairs (for those people who still think it is a political vote for Alex Salmond and the SNP) and to also have greater autonomy and say in how the country is run instead of some Parliament in another country dictating such behaviour. Is there anywhere else in the world where 1 Parliament controls 4 countries? (yes, Wales is a country and not, as some people may think, a Principality) lol
David Spence
‘ Edinburgh is already reducing our block grant (REBATE) by £20 MILLION/ year so how is a yes vote going to change that? ‘
Ali, I am sure you are aware, but the cuts this vile Tory Government is doing to these islands is causing far greater damage I would say……….and if those b********…sorry, vile Tories get their way, what they will do to this country is considerably worse than what any Council could ever do………and we will all suffer as a consequence….unless you are in a fortunate position financially to pay all the private companies for the services (a system designed specifically to support the rich at the cost of everybody else) previously done by the state.
Ali Inkster
Lik I’m alwis said BETTER AFF CLEAR O DA LOT O DEM.
Jim Leask
The thing that suprises me the most about this letter/thread, is not that Mr I R Selbie has written such as ill informed and judgemental letter, it is that so many people have taken the bait.
Joe Johnson
I’m voting no and believe Scotland are better off in the U.K. Mr.Selbie you have the rights to your views but making insults to yes voters as semi illiterate is childish and out of order. Of course debate on the independence referendum is important as we need to know how it will affect us but making insults to each other because of our views is not helpful. That includes yes voters calling no voters ” scaremongering, fear factor, project fear, unpatriotic” etc. let’s show each other respect because whatever the result of referendum is, we have to respect it whatever the outcome.
laurence niven
use of the non existant adjective semi illiterate suggests that the writer may be semi literate
ian tinkler
“We are not nationalists and the SNP nor Mr Salmond are being voted for.”
Douglas Greig Young, what a silly statement. Please use a Thesaurus and look up the word nationalist. Then try a dictionary or two.
Nationalist, ( supporter of independence. separatist. autonomist).
1. person wanting independence for their group or state. someone who believes that their group, state, or nation should be independent
2. person believing their nation is most important. someone who feels that their nation’s interests should be considered as more important than those of other nations
I would hate to be insulting, but for a representative of the Yes campaign you are making about as much sense as Salmond. If not nationalists, just what are you?
Ian Leask
This argument applies equally to British nationalism, which Unionists would have us believe is the non-nationalist’s nationalism of choice. If nationalism was indeed so unremittingly evil, then these people ought to be arguing for the abolition of the UK and its merger into a European superstate as a prelude to one world government. In the real world we live in, the ‘nation’ rightly or wrongly is the currency unit of sovereignty. It’s only when Scotland has recovered its sovereignty that we will be able to become truly international and be able to trade on our nationhood.
British nationalism is the nationalism of Empire, of the exploitation and colonialisation of peoples in the Americas, Australasia, Asia and Africa. It’s the nationalism of sooking up to the Pentagon in order to keep the flicker of those imperial dreams alive. British nationalism is the insular nationalism of an island with pretensions to global status.
Scottish nationalism isn’t insular. We have borders and we know how to reach beyond them. Scottish nationalism is the nationalism of loving your country because it’s small and harmless and needs people to look after it. Historically, British nationalism has been the nationalism of a feral pack of scavenging dugs. Scottish nationalism is the nationalism of a cute fluffy puppy. Brit-nats hate it because we keep peeing on the Westminster shag pile.
Ali Inkster
Scottish nationalism is the nationalism of the exploitation of Orkney and Shetland and the failed exploitation of Central America which led to national bankruptcy and the political union with rUK. The British Empire only really took of after this union and the Scots took part with as much gusto as their English counterparts. BETTER AFF CLEAR O DA LOT O DEM.
john irvine
A yes vote will no doubt be a disaster for Scotland.
Lets hope that common sense prevails and the intelligent percentage of Scots turn up at the polling stations to vote NO.
Dave Cooper
Why don’t Orkney & Shetland say good by to both pesky governments. Go the whole hog & declare yourself Greater Forvik.
Sandy McMillan
This April my Good wife and my self, received our annual State Pension increase, between us we received £07.21 per week £03.60 and Half Pence each, But wait for it I was awarded Pension Credit Guaranteed a few years ago, this year it changed to Pension Saving Credit, This I don’t understand as I don’t have a black penny of savings, I have tried every available Government office across the border in that country they call England, and also my MP without any reply, I thought I would try the Scottish Government, they told me it was ridiculous and they would take up my case with Westminster, The main reason for this is that I was deducted £13.40 from my new benefit Saving Credit, approximately £3.50 per week, this left my wife and my self £3.60, £1.80 each per week, Is there any one out there who can figure out what this Tory /Lib Dem are up to with OAP Pensions, as long as they are in power we are had our chips, This is only one of many stupid decisions David Cameron and his band of happy millionaires are not for me, well really they never have
My vote is defiantly for the Yes Campaign, we in Scotland have no other option.
Vernon Young
Charlie Banham, Cullivoe. Oh thank heaven that the UK has a Tory party in power. Every time a left wing party comes to power the UK sinks deep into debt. The answer from the Labour party was to borrow more money and put us further into debt.
I am afraid, love them or loath them, its the Tories that are pulling the country around , something totally beyond the cloth cap politics of Labour
Vernon Young
Very true Mr Selby. I am not saying in every case, but certainly in the majority. The supporters of the yes campagn, as they appear in the forums of various Scottish newspapers, do often seem to be at the lesser end of the social strata. The language they employ, and the hatred they pour out, much of it twisted by their own personal lack of understanding, does not bode well for Scotland, if they win
Johan Adamson
If we Scots are illiterate surely this is a failing of the current education system and society as part of the union?
And I think you will find it is Mr Selbie, not Selby.
Gordon Harmer
You can do better than that Johan you must try harder, you know education as well as the Scottish NHS come under the governance of the Scottish government.
Johan Adamson
When I wis at school, there was no Scottish Government, and you could leave school being illiterate, still can. Probably yes and no voters alike, to be fair.
Gordon Harmer
Johan in your comment you stated the “current education system” which is governed by the Scottish government.
Brian Smith
Vernon Young objects to ‘the language [Yes voters] employ’, and ‘the hatred they pour out’, and then says that they ‘seem to be at the lesser end of the social strata’. Vernon is one of those people who think that he or she can say whatever s/he likes, but that others should be more careful.
Robert Duncan
What an immensely hypocritical comment, Mr Young.
You crticise the hatred from the Yes campaign whilst yourself speaking in a very divisive and arrogant manner. Speaking of the “lesser end of the social strata” – a rather convoluted term to “employ” – as if these people are immediately less deserving of their say, is rather pathetic and, frankly, undemocratic.
Not that I believe there’s any truth on what you say. Even as a No leaning voter, I would day there have been some very eloquent arguments for independence, some in these very pages.
Harry Dent
“The supporters of the yes campagn… seem to be at the lesser end of the social strata.”
Leaving aside the disdain and snobbery contained in this ungrammatical remark, it does serve to highlight the fact that support for independence is stronger amongst the working class than amongst those at the top of society.
That’s why I tend to support the Radical Independence Campaign rather than the “official” Yes campaign. The RIC is doing sterling work in taking the arguments for independence to working class communities and marginalised groups. Their arguments understand that there is far more to independence than whether one votes SNP or not.
ian tinkler
“independence is stronger amongst the working class” Perhaps we are getting a little silly here. . I for one will breathe a huge sigh of relief when this divisive pseudo class struggle is over. I just hope Nationalism, once and for ever, goes into the dust bin of history, alongside all the divisive crap that threatens unity, peace and humanity..
Tim Parkinson
First; a vote for independence is a vote for a Scottish Labour-run Scotland because that is what the majority of voters ( including those who left Labour due to the Blair/ Iraq factor, and who will now return) will decide once it comes to an election to decide who actually governs Scotland…so forget Alex Salmond’s sums.
Second, given that the UK debt is unmanageable; still growing, and a bigger liability in relation to our GDP than that of Greece or Spain was when Europe and the IMF foreclosed on them, how is any argument about economic security being “better together” creditable?
If UK leaves Europe, will Europe still let them continue to default on the national debt? Will they still underwrite their trade partnership transfers? No.
Will the USA then underwrite us and underwrite our debt? Don’t think so!!
Where is all this rubbish about economic security coming from? Its not rational.
There is only one choice to make in the referendum
The choice between more economic austerity and cuts and permanent lack of self determination.
And more economic austerity, and cuts with a glimmer of hope for a better future, with really nothing to lose if it doesn’t pay off.
Your pensions wages and welfare state are being liquidised as assets to transfer to the wealthy elite who own the politicians anyway, so what’s the odds?
They make take our disabled living allowance, pensions and savings….but they will never take our……….touchable forelocks?
Tim Parkinson
Vernon Young; you seem under the delusion that the Tories are getting us out of debt?!
Have you looked at the annual balance of payments?
We are still increasing the annual debt by about 65 billion a year.
They cut the public sector wage bill by about 20% and cut benefits and wages in real terms to pay off the debt.
But they haven’t actually spent a penny on paying off the debt.
The rate at which we are getting deeper into debt has slowed slightly but we are still getting deeper into debt!
If we now have “growth” at about 1% that’s about what it was when they took over from Labour.
We only went into recession when they took essential working capital out of the system and belatedly found out it was more expensive to pay public sector workers benefits than wages……( due to the claw back of 60% in pension contributions, income tax national insurance and VAT that you get when a person has got a job, and the “in kind” benefit that they then have the security to spend in the local community ad support local private sector jobs with their purchases)
The Tories have no real interest in paying off the public debt because its the magic bullet that persuades the public they all needed to accept pain; reduced lives, and the dismantling of the last 100 years social infrastructure to a level Thatcher could only have dreamed of.
And now any increased spending goes on arms contracts ( to favoured old friends; remember Thatcher’s cabinet’s personal interests in the Saudi Arms deal?) “infrastructure contracts” ( to old favoured friends who bank offshore and subcontract to foreign companies; yet give out high salaried seats on boards to ex-ministers like confetti) and still increase the public debt because the “growth” can neither match their government expansionism, nor result in any tax coming back into the coffers due to lack of competence of taxation laws and enforcement processes.
But there you go…..if the public can be convinced as easily that the Tories are getting us out of debt and Labour “got the whole world into debt” then this kind of debate wont change anyone’s mind.
Oh, and of course there are more people at the upper end of the social scale supporting the “better together” campaign! They already know the game Westminster governments play and who scratches each others backs.
Why risk a more egalitarian culture based on needs and ability to contribute?