Althing forum attempts to unpick Brexit
Casting off the traditional debate format in favour of a forum Saturday’s Althing attempted to unpick Brexit and its potential impact on Shetland.
Offering insights from their respective fields and discussing their “ideal Brexit” were farmer Aimee Budge, MP Alistair Carmichael, chief executive of the Shetland Fishermen’s Association Simon Collins, Visit Scotland’s Steve Mathieson, Irene Hambleton of accountants RSM and health board chairman and former SIC leader Gary Robinson.
Opening proceedings host Jonathan Wills said: “We’ve been hearing a lot of debate for the last two years. What we haven’t heard is what exactly it will mean for Shetland.”
But clarity remained out of reach over the next two and a half hours with a pivotal vote in the House of Commons scheduled for Tuesday.
Presenting a view from Westminster Mr Carmichael said: “Every time you think we’ve got to peak madness in the House of Commons something else happens.”
He added that Tuesday will likely to be on “another level” and said that he hesitates to “predict anything beyond the next hour at the moment”.
Miss Budge said that farmers were particularly worried about the future of subsidy payments in the aftermath of leaving the EU.
“The big concern is where the Scottish government or UK government will find that kind of money to put into farming.”
The tourism industry was most concerned about maintaining visa free travel for citizens of the EU, said Mr Mathieson, while Mrs Hambleton said that businesses had to scenario plan in order to offset any potential negative side effects from Britain’s departure.
Perhaps the bleakest view came from Mr Robinson who referred to a story in Saturday’s Times which had highlighted government analysis which warned of potential delays of up to six months for pharmaceuticals.
“Project fear is now project reality”, he said.
Unsurprisingly, the biggest optimism came from Mr Collins, who viewed Brexit as an opportunity for fishermen. He noted that British fishermen caught less than half of fish in UK waters, compared with Norway catching around 85 per cent in theirs.
He later criticised the EU as undemocratic but said he was a committed European and that he and his partner had four EU passports between them. His ideal scenario would involve dismantling the EU and for the project to be rebuilt with more accountability and less bureaucracy.
Indeed the EU came in for criticism throughout the night. Mr Carmichael said that his view was not “massively different” from that of Mr Collins. But where the fishermen’s chief was keen to depart Mr Carmichael favoured remaining and reforming.
A straw poll at the close of proceedings found an overwhelming support for this view. One person favoured Theresa May’s deal, two opted for leaving with no deal and 20 said their preference was to stay in the bloc.
• Full coverage in Friday’s Shetland Times
David Spence
Isn’t the whole idea of Brexit, to do with the Conservatives wanting a trade deal with the USA, without the interference of the EU?
This will also, I think, be the beginning of the mass privatization of most government responsibilities and duties of care going to USA companies, where the Conservatives will benefit from such a deal? (look after number 1, being their moto).
The impact on Shetland, I fear, will be very damaging indeed, as economic circumstances will mean a vast reduction of Local Authority spending. This will also force the SIC to do huge cuts in budgets and very much streamline and prioritize what money goes where.
This will force many other companies and people owning their own business to either reduce the workforce or shut up shop?
The general outlook does not look favourable for Shetland in the long term.
I sincerely hope my outlook is proven wrong?
Ali Inkster
A remain bias that makes bbc question times usual 3 to 1 for remain look fair.
Miss Budge should know that the UK will be better able to fund her grants when they no longer have to pay the eu a 60% admin fee. How is it going getting the money due from the snp by the way? has she worked out what her hill and scrub land will actually get under their new way of working out grants. (some say the real reason the computer programe has been delayed so long is the votes the snp will lose from the crofting areas when their new payments regime is in place).
Mr Mathieson should be aware that visa free travel was common throughout europe before the eu and will be after we leave.
finally Mr Carmichael should know that the only reform of the eu that they will be doing is ever closer integration. Starting with what his former leader called a DANGEROUS FANTASY dreamed up by brexiteers, an EU ARMY. Well that DANGEROUS FANTASY has been seen to be a DANGEROUS REALITY since the referendum with EU armoured personel carriers on the streets of Paris battling french protestors.
Peter Hamilton
Is this DANGEROUS REALITY stuff for real? Someone may have been listening to Trump and Farage’s comments on the EU army without turning on their b.s. filter. Why shouldn’t EU nations cooperate in defence matters? Is Ali saying NATO is a bad thing?
Since 1945 it has become politically correct for democratic European neighbours to cooperate. Why not get over it?
What is this DANGEROUS REALITY Ali fears? Does he imagine the purpose of a EU army would be to attack domestic protesters across frontiers like the Soviet army did in Hungary in 1956? Does he see the EU as a fascist entity that must be stopped? Before you know it he will be advocating the citizen’s right to bear arms so as to protect itself against the government like they do in the good old US of A. Just how whacky is his DANGEROUS REALTY?
No one gets to choose their nationality Ali, just how we feel about it. There is nothing natural or God-given in being Scottish, British, German or European. Why not celebrate what we have in common and not obsess about invented differences resulting from random man made lines on a map? Scary scary stuff.
Ali Inkster
Not Trump or Farage but Macron and Merkel. I don’t need to imagine them attacking protesters there is video all over the web of EU marked APCs doing just that these last few weekends in Paris and elsewhere in France. Protests not about fuel prices as claimed by the media but protests again the eu and globalisation.
We can’t choose our nationality and we should of course celebrate that which connects us. But that does not mean we should blindly and without thought accept that which separates us. We can choose which cultures and behaviours are acceptable and those that are abhorrent to us. And only a fool would accept a culture that demands you submit without question.
Oh there are a lot of miles of sea that separates Shetland from Scotland
and only a line on a map drawn by a king that separates Scotland and England. A separation you are keen to expand upon. I have to say you do seem confused
Graham Fleming
So your British now,not a Shetlander, – accepting the majority wanting to be part of the E.U, So much for Wir Shetland its Wir Westminster then!
Ali Inkster
Give us a vote and I will vote with my head and my heart for Shetland to be clear of da lot a dem, EU, UK and Scotland all running massive deficits. We wid certainly be much better aff.
Peter Hamilton
Fake news strikes again then I guess…
Which is this culture that demands you submit without question Ali ? Sounds like it owes more to Henry Tudor than Kant and Rousseau. And what culture is it you are being asked to accept that separates us and is abhorrent to you ? Eurovision ? Persian ? Mesophilic?
Perhaps you can expand on what your gripe actually is Ali, if it isn’t pulling sovereignty with folk little different from ourselves.
FYI should Brexiteers triumph I’d still rather separate Scotland from England and stay European as I don’t much want to be led by English nationalist bigots. No confusion there.
Ali Inkster
As I said only a fool submits without question, and remaining in the eu is submitting without question. Go read the Lisbon treaty if you think it isn’t.
David Spence
I am intrigued as to what other opinions there is on Brexit, and whether or not this has a political agenda to suit the purpose for a particular party to benefit?
Is Brexit for the greater good of the few, but at the cost to the many?
Would Shetland be better off under Brexit???
There does not appear to be a definite picture being drawn where people can make a concise and definitive choice. Even the politics which has caused this mess, seem to be at odds with each other??
How do they expect the people of the country (UK) to choose???
The more you look into Brexit, the more I am convinced we would be better off on our own?
Maybe we should re-establish our links back to Denmark???? (just a passing thought, as they say)
David Leask
Propaganda rules ok
Peter Hamilton
Putting the culture issue Ali ducks aside I don’t get why pulling sovereignty when it is helpful is a problem, be that in the EU or even when accepting WTO rules which, guess what, weren’t written singlehandedly by her majesty’s government. Lisbon moved us to majority rule in a partnership of friendly nations. So what?
Perhaps the problem to following mutually beneficial accept-some-trade-off rules set by the collective group is where you fear your culture differs, so again I am wondering what part of European culture Ali fears and / or rejects. Eating snails aside (and that is not obligatory) I’ve always felt the UK is an appreciated part of mainstream European culture. There is a joint love of family, films, bevvy and football, eating out a bit if possible, a law abiding appreciation of the need for democracy, free speech, free press etc. Fondness of folktales and music, poetry, song, literature, dance and even opera unite people across national boundaries. Again, what is Ali’s problem?
Leaving the EU will be bad for jobs, farming and the NHS and we don’t know what the deals will bring to fishing or trade. Vive la difference and long live the similarities.
Ali Inkster
“I don’t much want to be led by English nationalist bigots. No confusion there.”
I think your own bigotry is shinning through Peter, You talk about pooling sovereignty on one hand while labeling the English bigots. You say one thing while meaning another will you be standing for office soon?
Ian Tinkler
A few thoughts, not for the first time have we, in Britain, find ourselves alone with Europe united against us and the will of our people. Not for the first time in our history has our position looked bleak with hard times being promised to come. We are being bullied by a cabal of bureaucratic nonentities answerable to no one who would try and isolate and distance us from our Commonwealth friends. Our Sovereignty and independence being undermined and the will of our people being ignored and denigrated. Contrary to some misinformed views, I and many like me, welcome selective immigration from Europe but not at the expense of our Commonwealth friends, whatever their colour and Creed. I welcome open Borders in Ireland just as they were long before the EU ever existed. We have stood alone before and always overcome adversity however grave. If Junker and the cabal running the EU will not negotiate and remain intransigent, sneering and neo-bellicose It is time to stand tall and give them the two-finger salute, not just the Churchilian one.
Johan Adamson
Heavens Ian, I wis imagining a violin accompaniment.
We cant feed our bairns sovereignty Ian, even the Bank of England agrees that we are going to be worse off. A self-made economic disaster. Let them eat cake.
Peter Hamilton
Really Ian, “bullied” ? Surely Theresa May said her deal was a “good deal”.
There is such a thing as reading too many Daily Express editorials. Last one I read saw Ian’s “bureaucratic nonentities” blasted for removing the right of the honest Brit to buy a lawnmower so loud it could deafen you. How very dare the EU protect UK consumers?
Does Ian imagine Claude Junker doesn’t speak for the elected leaders of the remaining EU nation states, but that rather they march to his tune? Lamentable.
The remain member states are naturally protecting the interests of their citizens, including those of the Republic of Ireland, who are in the worlds largest trading block, which is conveniently on our doorstep.
The Commonwealth ties however are lose, with distant nations who urged Britain to Remain. The EU block will secure better trade deals with those nations faster by dint of size and relevance.
British diplomacy has never succeeded by cutting off our nose to spite our face.
Perhaps we should learn from the Nordic foreign minister who quipped last week that there are two types of countries in Europe: small ones and small ones that don’t realise they are small.
David Spence
Has the question really been answered as to why the Tories, gave us this referendum to leave the EU in the first place, if it was not going to be in their favour, despite the fact much of our business is with the EU?
What hidden agenda do the Tories have that they are not telling us………..until it is too late?
Have we all become xenophobic and argumentive about the pro’s and con’s of the EU, and the need to ‘ fly the flag ‘ as a weak demonstration of nationality (excluding Scotland and Northern Ireland) or Britishness, said very, very loosely???
It seems very much we are playing right into the hands of the Tories, and singing their song to their beat.
What has brought this on other than a narrow vision and not looking at the bigger picture????
Brexit only means one thing, and this one thing is for the Tories to benefit for themselves no matter how you look at it.
I would prefer to be as part of the EU, instead of being outside it, looking in.
It is as simple as that.
Peter Hamilton
Of come off it Ali! I have never once labelled all English people as being bigots, nor would I. English nationalist bigots are bigots by definition of being bigots. It’s a bit like a numpty being a numpty if that helps.
Great attempt at diversion Ali, but just what, or should it be which, is your “abhorrent” cultural problem exactly? It can’t be this hard to specify the culture/s you abhore surely, be they mainland, Scottish, UK mainland, continental or from further afield?
No man is an island Ali, unless perhaps you moved a little northwards and changed your name to Forvik, but you might need to borrow a little cash from somewhere at that stage to build a hospital lest you ever get poorly. Heaven knows who would staff it though, when you are happy to say some cultures are abhorrent to you but won’t specify which.
Last I checked you can’t train as a doctor at Shetland College, the NAFC or in a night class in Hamnavoe or Walls, so I guess we will be needing other folk from other parts and other cultures for some time to come. Maybe try to get over it Mr. Shetland-wid-be-much-better-aff-clear-of-da-lot-of-dem, EU-UK-and-Scotland.
David Spence
I do not know exactly what it is Peter, but your first paragraph reminds me of ……..
If you notice this notice
You will notice that this notice
Is not worth noticing. lol
Peter Hamilton
Ho ho ho! Glad you are laughing David 🙂
I’m with you on the real agenda behind Brexit not being immediately obvious btw.
I think the big picture is that there are some rich and powerful people in the UK wanting to shackle the UK to USA workers rights and health care in order to benefit from lower taxes after Brexit.
They don’t need the EU to guarantee their human rights. They have holidays aplenty and investments in so many places that using the NHS is as alien to them as using public transport. They have uncharitably driven their agenda to the fore against the better instincts of one nation Tories and have done so using decades of media manipulation and dispicable xenophobic dog whistle messages on immigration.
Thankfully as I write the Shaddow Home Secretary is advocating for an “efficient, fair and non-discriminatory migration policy” that is conducive to the UK’s economic interests. Something to wish for in the New Year.
David Spence
I take your points, Peter. It will be interesting how the Tories will drive their immigration policies and whether or not it bends more towards the USA than to this of the EU, after March next year?
One of the largest industries which depend on EU workers is in the hospitality industry, even here in Shetland there is a large EU workforce, not only in the hospitality industry, but the fishing processing industry as well.
It will be interesting how the Shetland economy will cope after March 2019.
As for human rights, I question the validity of as to what will be used and what will be discarded in terms of either British or European Human Rights. I fear workers rights may be diminished and favoured more towards the employer than the employee???? We shall see?
If the UK becomes ‘ the cheap workforce of Europe ‘ this may stir up resentment within the working ethos or political change…….before it is too late????
We are in unchartered waters, and there could be stormy sea’s ahead. I just hope the changes are for the better of the collective rather than for the few????
ian tinkler
“I think the big picture is that there are some rich and powerful people in the UK wanting to shackle the UK to USA workers rights and health care in order to benefit from lower taxes after Brexit.” O dear dear me, it is all a wicked capitalist conspiracy. Good to know where you are coming from Peter Hamilton! Indeed Ho,Ho,Ho, Ha, Ha, Ha.
Peter Hamilton
The film, Brexit: The Uncivil War, starring Benedict Cumberbatch, to be shown on Channel 4 at 9pm on the 7th of January, could help Ian to see things differently. The wealthy puppeteers of both leave campaigns will be on show, portrayed on the back of very good source material.
One important omission however is the extent to which the leave campaigns broke campaign funding rules. That they did has been proven, but more revelations are expected. The many were told outrageous fibs by and for the benefit of the few and social media was manipulated in ways Putin would be proud of.
Ali Inkster
You are confusing art with reality Peter not an uncommon fault with lefty types like yourself
Mr ian Tinkler
Get over it Peter Hamilton, 17,410,742 people voted to leave the EU. Are those voters the rich and powerful people in the UK wanting to shackle the UK to USA workers rights and health care to benefit from lower taxes after Brexit, as you so claim? All 17 plus million? Peter, take your had from where the sun does not shine and face reality. They voted to leave because they had had enough of Junker and the overpaid self-servers he is such a representative example of. You must have a shallow opinion of those Brexit voters intellects if you believe they were all so deceived . It must take a very arrogant or opinionated man to have such a view.
David Spence
but Ian, put simply, had the people who voted to leave were more informed of the consequences of leaving the EU, would they have still voted to leave? By all accounts, unlikely.
We must abide by what the people voted, most will say……..but most will also say…..those who voted to leave were not fully informed of the repercussions of voting to leave, as we are now.
As well as this, nobody has questioned why the Conservatives were wanting the EU Ref. in the first place if it was not going to better the party? We have not learned from history the fact that when the Conservatives do something of a national scale, it is usually for them to benefit and not the people of the UK (said loosely).
It is not undemocratic for people to change their minds.
Michael Garriock
David Spence. Put simply, if anyone was fool enough to vote without being sure they were fully informed on the choice they were voting for, its nobody’s problem but their own. Maybe they’ll learn from it and try a little harder next time.
How many times have votes been held that as soon as the winner’s wishes were put in to force, many changed their mind about how they’d voted. Did any of those votes get re-run because of it? Nope! So why this one?
Do you think all those who voted ‘remain’ were any better informed of the consequences of remaining? I think not.
Both sides ran campaigns riddled with more mud-slinging, scare stories and unrealistic promises than get wheeled out every general election, and anybody that believed one word of it only has themselves to blame for what they end up with.
There was only one sensible way to vote, and that was judge the EU on its track record ’73 to present, and vote accordingly. Its insulting to those of us who did so, when strangers insinuate vote choices were a result of being ‘misinformed’.
Mr ian Tinkler
Certainly, David, it is not undemocratic for people to change their minds. It is, however, most undemocratic to ignore their votes from the last referendum. There will be many general elections over the next few decades. If a will to rejoin the EU is campaigned for, and the electorate so vote, so be it, but I would not hold your breath if I were you.
David Spence
Michael and Ian, do you think there was a political agenda by the Conservative Party, for allowing the British people (despite Scotland and Northern Ireland voting to remain) to have an EU Referendum if it was not going to be to the advantage of the Conservative Party?
What was the real motive behind giving us an EU Referendum?
There was only 4% difference between remain and leave, would this statistic be the same now that we are more informed of the consequences of leaving the EU?
I am skeptical in regard to whether or not the UK will be better off economically outwith the EU?
How much will it cost the tax payer to renegotiate a trade deal with 27 countries? Will the UK trade agreements outwith the EU improve the economy overall?
Before the EU Ref. were the people fully informed in regard to International Trading, Politics and Foreign Policies in relation to economic trading????
Why should UK businesses spent millions on having to renegotiate trade deals after March 2019? Will the EU just accept the previous status quo or will it force UK businesses to negotiate with 27 countries????
It is all fair and square saying the people voted to leave, but would the result be the same now? I doubt it.
Brian Smith
One of the main culprits in persuading people to vote Leave was the xenophobic campaign by the Daily Mail. Now the Mail has slightly changed tack, and that is causing Dacre’s devotees a lot of anguish and confusion.
Michael Garriock
@ David Spence:
Unless the Tories had/have an agenda in which they believe(d) making their party unelectable for at least a generation is somehow of “benefit” to it, which is exactly what the parliamentary Tories have succeeded in doing with their thoroughly despicable since the EU referendum vote, then no, I don’t believe they had/have an agenda.
The reason why they held the referendum, is that they had little choice. The relatively rapid and sustained rise in support for UKIP, which was taken advantage of by right wing extremists to grab a little of the action for themselves, saw to that.
It scared the Government. Oh, yeah, and they were arrogant enough to think they’d win a ‘Remain’ majority, which would have put it all to bed and business would have continued as before.
They got that wrong though, and have fiddled while Rome burned ever since, trying to salvage anything from the wreckage they can, by dressing up and selling everything but Brexit, as Brexit.
James Watt
Ian is suggesting that the only reason people voted to leave is because of Junker and what he represents, but that requires you forget the lies told by the leave campaign that helped sway people’s opinions on what leaving the EU actually means to the UK.
Michael Gove 9/04/16
“The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want”
Micheal Gove 19/04/16
“The UK would still be able to trade freely within Europe even if it left the EU, Michael Gove has said.
The justice secretary said the UK could be part of Europe’s free trade area to avoid trade tariffs, even if it was not a member of the EU single market.”
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36074853
The reality of the situation that Ian dismisses as scaremongering is that leaving the EU and single market could have huge consequences for the UK.
Michael Gove 03/01/19
He told delegates that the “turbulence” it would create would be “considerable” and that the warnings should not be dismissed as “project fear”.
Average tariffs on agri-food produce would be about 11%, with much higher tariffs of 40% or more on beef and sheep meat,
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-46749572
Peter Hamilton
Ali may have pre-judged the film, Brexit, The Uncivil War. It has been favourably reviewed in a range of newspapers and magazines, probably because it is the product of some very professional journalism.
It is based on first hand interviews with key players in the leave and remain campaigns gathered in two books, one by the political editor of the Sunday Times and another by David Cameron’s former media advisor. It is not a work of lefty art, but rather, as a dramatised portrayal, it is as close to the truth of the campaign as was apparent at the time as we are likely to get for some time.
The abuses of campaign funding and manipulation via social media are also a matter of fact, not confusion, and it isn’t just lefties who think so.
Peter Hamilton
Unlike Ian I am not going to attribute motives to all 17.4 million leave voters, also known as only 37% of the allowed electorate.
I do not claim they are all rich or will be financially better off after Brexit. Regrettably it now seems most will be poorer – which wasn’t widely appreciated at the time. But there were notable individuals behind the Leave campaigns with large sums to deploy who have perhaps already gained from betting on the turbulence of the markets. These folk have a spread of investments most of us would struggle to imagine.
Had voting been extended to include expats living in the EU, 16 and 17 year olds and EU citizens living in the U.K., is seems likely the leave vote would only have totalled a third of the electorate. So says Professor A.C. Grayling at any rate.
Anyway, whilst we are on it, let’s remember the referendum was only advisory.
So yes, the gerrymandered electorate (Democracy and Its Crisis, A.C. Grayling 2018) was given bad information on which to give their advice. The Brexit puppeteers pulled some strings. Does Ian want more information about this, on the side of a bus perhaps ?
Mr ian Tinkler
O Dear me, Peter now you intermate 17 plus million people were swayed into voting for leaving the EU by a message on the side of a bus. Do you really believe those 17 million were just puppets having their strings pulled?. O dear, dear me what a contemptuous, arrogant and nasty view to have of 17 million people Mr Hamilton. You so mimic the vacuous, cavalier attitude of Junker and Barnier, is it little wonder the pro-EU lobby lost so badly. Keep it up Peter, let us see just how big you dig that hole you have made for yourself.
Peter Hamilton
Puzzled as to why Ian thinks Boris Johnson would have put his whopper about £350m more money for the NHS on the side of a bus if not to mislead.
According to the Independant: “A poll by Ipsos MORI published in June 2016 found that nearly half the British public believed the claim.
“The UK Statistics Authority has since said the was a “clear misuse of official statistics” – most notably because the figure did not take into account the money the UK gets back from the EU after paying into the budget.
“After taking into account the rebate, the figure is believed to be closer to £250m but the question remains whether the money will actually go the NHS.”
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/final-say-brexit-referendum-lies-boris-johnson-leave-campaign-remain-a8466751.html
Leave aside Brexit making it harder to staff the NHS, we now know all possible Brexits are expected to shrink the economy, thereby increasing the calls on any “saving”.
This lie came from the same Eton-educated Boris that, according to the Daily Express, earns over £0.25m for his column in the Telegraph, whose London Home is worth £2.5m with a second home worth more than a third of a million, somewhat lessening his personal stake in the NHS.
Ali Inkster
When you take into account the customs revenue collected on goods coming into the UK and sent to Brussels it is considerably more than the £350 million quoted on the side of the bus.
Also the CEO of Calais ports has said there will be no extra checks carried out at ports in the event of no deal.
The head of the NHS said there will be no problems accessing drugs in the event of no deal.
Drinking water supplies will not be at risk in the event of no deal, a basic understanding of 1st year chemistry will tell you this.
Project fear has gone into overdrive since the result of the referendum was announced, and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker Peter.
ian tinkler
Peter Hamilton, stop telling lies and do not put words in my mouth, please. I made no comment about my thoughts about Borris and his bus, be they misleading or honest. Your argument must be very thin indeed if you resort to this kind of dishonesty. Perhaps you are taking lessons from Boris or could that be from EU Council Prsident Tusk. I just love his comment “Tusk, said western political civilisation would be destroyed if the UK voted ‘Leave’. Now there is a whopper to ponder!!
John Tulloch
Let’s see,…”whoppers” told during the EU referendum campaign?
How about this one, £15 billion of cuts to NHS, education, welfare, etc, plus £15 billion in tax increases, just for voting Leave? Nothing else, just voting Leave:
The Guardian commented:
“In a sign of the panic gripping the remain campaign, the chancellor plans to say that the hit to the economy will be so large that he will have little choice but to tear apart Conservative manifesto promises in an emergency budget delivered within weeks of an out vote.”
I don’t seem to recall any “emergency budget” happening. Funny that, isn’t it?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/14/osborne-predicts-30bn-hole-in-public-finance-if-uk-votes-to-leave-eu
ian tinkler
Referencing above. Beats Boris and his bus anyday. https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/brexit-spells-the-end-of-western-political-civilisation-says-tusk-sndcrfw93
#
Peter Hamilton
Brian references Paul Darce, who, as Editor of the then hard-Brexit backing Daily Mail (readership 1.4m), published the notorious “Enemies of the People” headline attacking three High Court judges for doing their job in determining parliament would get a vote on Article 50. This saw a toxic tirade of racist abuse against Gina Miller, the vindicated complainant.
Paul is also known for following David Cameron’s lead with a headline likening illegal migrants to insects.
Paul lives in Belgravia, London. His other properties include a substantial estate in Sutherland (which has done rather well from E.U. subsidies) and a residence in the British Virgin Isles. He reportedly cashed in shares worth £0.7m on leaving the Daly Mail, where his final annual salary was 2.4m. This was the highest for any U.K. editor ever, presumably justified by his ability to shape public opinion in a direction favourable to the political views of the majority shareholder, Viscount Rothermere.
Paul has moved on to a position with Rupert Murdoch’s Sun, the Times and the Sunday Times.
Ian would have it such people pull no strings. Pull the other one Ian.
Can’t help wonder when look-no-strings-Ian stopped believing Boris’s big bus lie?
Ali Inkster
You are worried about the wording of a slogan on a bus and the readership of the daily mail being swayed by pro brexit articles. Yet you also claim folk shopuld watch a tv play written and performed by pro eu writers and actors to get an accurate view on leaving the eu. Thankfully you are no longer a teacher Peter.
Peter Hamilton
Ian remains incredulous that a small number of very rich people manipulated the electorate to their own ends.
The New Yorker recently shone light on the extent to which social media was manipulated via datamining by the far right element of the leave campaign. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/new-evidence-emerges-of-steve-bannon-and-cambridge-analyticas-role-in-brexit/amp
Of particular interest is the role of Aaron Banks who gave £8m to the campaign, presumably to sway public opinion, and Trump’s far-right populist strategist Steve Bannon.
One things becoming clearerer. There are elements seeking to destabilise the E.U. and benefit from disrupting the status quo in the U.K.
Most people mistrust the intentions of Putin’s Russia. The Financial Times reported on the 5th of November 2018 that the same Aaron Banks spent “a considerable time with Russian diplomats — including a long lunch at the ambassador’s residence — in the run-up to the 2016 referendum”. The same article carries the fact that Aaron Banks has misled Parliament as to where the £8m came from. https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/4610a4be-dde2-11e8-9f04-38d397e6661c
If European cooperation is weakened and the U.K. were taken closer to Trump’s low tax, low public service America I think I can see the concern behind Donald Tusk’s long-term warning Ian brought up, which wasn’t a lie.
Peter Hamilton
Ali won’t learn from art, film or anything else if he is determined not to and his undignified, ill-tempered and inaccurate personal attack does nothing to strengthen his argument. I’m still in teaching and hope on his part he is still capable of changing his mind, if not his approach.
Lets hope when he wrote he would give his head and heart for “Shetland to be clear of da lot a dem, EU, UK and Scotland” he wasn’t planning to argue Shetland shops should stop stocking macaroni. I haven’t met that many beremeal noodles, hollowed out or not.
Ali Inkster
Not wanting to be ruled over by another country does not mean not trading with them. If you can;t figure this out for yourself you really shouldn’t be teaching others.
Peter Hamilton
Yet to learn which unnamed culture is abhorrent to Ali and if it is from this unnamed country he doesn’t want ruled by…
What’s his problem exactly? It might help to try a different angle.
Where does Ali stand on Heinz spaghetti hoops and what about the cultural intermingling (German, American and Italian), alien cultural domination and threat to pure Nordic palates they represent?
And if, as we’d hope, he is actually ok with the spag hoops does that mean he is also ok with all predominantly Anglo-Saxon countries and Italy, just not with other Mediterranean countries? Could it be the French that he finds abhorrent? I’m just not smart enough to hazard a guess.
Maybe it’s those Lerrik Scotties? Who invited them anyway? And didn’t I hear some of them made it as far as Scalloway? Scary!
Perhaps from Ali’s vantage point even the bridge to East Isle was a mistake. And with thanks and respect to Geordie Jacobsen for this borrowing, just where does it all stop? Independence for Hoose?
Would Ali really be better off without the lot of them?
And where exactly did Geordie learn to think like that? Surely to goodness not at the school!
ian tinkler
James Watt, I have no doubt whatsoever that leaving the EU would have huge consequences for the UK. Things for a time may well be difficult but we would be ditching a stale non-democratic bunch of self-serving eurocrats and regaining control of our own country. We would be opening our borders to worldwide trade, worldwide science, culture and immigration. I can see nothing but good from that. It would be a tremendous advance to embrace all nations and be rid of the EU bureaucrats and their nightmare petit rules and regulations.
ian tinkler
Ian is incredulous about Peter Hamilton’s God like belief that he can be omniscient about my thoughts and those of the UK electorate who voted for Brexit. Truly incredulous, not wishing to be personal here I will say no more that what a so clever man he must be.
Peter Hamilton
“TURKEY (population 76 million) IS JOINING THE EU, Vote Leave, take back control”, or so said the deceitful Leave EU campaign poster which followed an even worse four minute UKIP party broadcast.
Former Murdoch employee, Michael Gove MP (£150,000+ p.a. for 8 hour week), millionaire and honorary life-time member of the Carlton Club, is worth a mention when considering the lies told by a handful of rich folk to mislead referendum voters.
Gove was Co-Convenor of Vote Leave and has since expressed slight regret. The Sun has Dominique Cumming stating “If Boris, Gove… had not picked up the baseball bat marked ‘Turkey/NHS/£350million’ with five weeks to go then 650 000 votes might have been lost. ”https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6795295/top-brexiteer-michael-gove-says-leave-campaign-was-wrong-to-spread-fears-about-turkey-joining-the-eu-in-order-to-win-referendum/
Professor James Ker-Lindsay of the LSE stated: “there is a good case to be made that the unfounded claims made by the Leave campaign about Turkish membership of the EU have ultimately cost Britain its own membership of the Union”.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unfounded-claim-turkey-swing-brexit-referendum/
This contains the broadcast aimed, let’s face it, at convincing people they were about to be overrun by an “abhorrent culture”. Am I getting warmer Ali? Care to rethink your position Ian?
It’s Gove and chums that want to take back control.
Steven Jarmson
Turkey isn’t joining the EU.
All accession talks have been stopped.
I doubt they will resume until a serious change of leadership happens.
I voted leave.
But stories like this undermine the good reasons to leave.
Peter Hamilton
You’re right Steven. That claim shouldn’t have featured in either Leave campaign. Our parliamentarians still don’t know where the money behind this result influencing and potentially result changing lie came from.
Its maybe worth revisiting two key points lest they skipped Ian’s attention.
Firstly, on December 20th, in his typically disagreeable style, Ian scorned my observation that “there are some rich and powerful people in the UK wanting to shackle the UK to USA workers rights and health care in order to benefit from lower taxes after Brexit.”
Secondly, since then I have provided him with ample evidence of who they are and how voters were manipulated and misled.
Lest he needs more convincing how about Jacob Rees Mogg’s personal fortune of £50m+ and his association with the small government, low tax and low public services backing Institute of Economic Affairs: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/24/no-deal-brexit-poorer-jacob-rees-mogg-dividend.
Or we could consider “Skint” Nigel Farage: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/skint-nigel-farage-earned-up-to-790-000-on-top-of-six-figure-mep-salary-zw7m6n6ff
Now admittedly I’m no saint, but Ian’s tactics look chosen to scare folk off contradicting him and weaken public debate.
Can Ian instead engage with the body of facts I’ve provided above and maybe, just maybe, show he is capable of occasionally changing his mind, if not his disagreeable approach?
Ali Inkster
Remain outspent leave by a huge margin, remain broke election law, remain lied yet you don’t sit there wondering just how many votes were bought by remain overspend or were persuaded by remain lies. You demand Lk up helly aa changes to suit you yet in all your years in Shetland you have never gotten involved yourself. You demand democracy for Shetland CT yet demand a new vote when democracy disagrees with you. You really are a man of contradictions.
Brian Smith
Here’s the shocking news about the Remain and Leave overspend:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45043066
John Tulloch
The main point about future policies on public spending, workers’ rights, healthcare, etc, is they will be decided by British voters, not unelected EU mandarins.
If we have, say, a Tory government whose policies we don’t like, we will be free to elect a Labour government or vice versa. Not so with the EU, whose diktats include permissible public spending levels.
EU-imposed, withering austerity has brought real destitution to millions in southern Europe, notably, in Greece and also, Italy where they actually imposed a “technocrat” government, selected by themselves, on the Italian people.
ian tinkler
In a slightly longer answerer to Peter Hamilton propaganda posts, I ignored much of his chip on the shoulder nonsense regarding the huge wealth of his claimed pro-Brexit “puppet masters” pulling the voter’s strings as simply the socialist claptrap he so exposes. Briefly, he exposes the huge wealth and influence of Jacob Rees Mogg, Nigel Farage, Michael Gove, Aaron Banks, Paul Darce, Boris Johnson to mention just a few!!! Such a narrow selection he chooses, how about his very own Tony Blair (£60 million), Richard Branson (£4 Billion), J K Rowling (£1 billion). All three are strongly for the EU, that appears outside Peter’s knowledge, not to mention the likes of Cameron, Osborne, Junkers, Tusk et al. I could go on, but the point is made. However, I feel Peter will miss it. These are the poor victims of leaving the EU, get real Peter, your argument is facile and nonsensical!!!
Peter Hamilton
Wow. Ian has just put Harry Potter author J. K. Rowling on the same page as Aaron Banks who has been referred by the Electoral Commission to the National Crime Agency in multiple suspected charges.
Ian also purposefully ignored the detailed and referenced evidence provided on how the rich and powerful people I listed lied, misled and manipulated. When did he stop believing the NHS would gain that £350m btw?
For Ali’s benefit I also think House Elves should have rights and oppose the use of the term “mudbloods”. I charitably trust he doesn’t find my stance abhorrent. When did he stop believing Turkey was about to join the EU btw?
You know what? We should be totally proud of J.K. Rowling and totally ashamed of the increase in racially motivated hate crimes that have followed this divisive Brexit campaign that had been forced on the country by a small manipulative rump within the Tory party. John Major had a word for them.
Peter Hamilton
“Remain broke election law”. Let’s look.
Both campaigns did indeed do some things wrong, intentionally and not, with even the Lib-Dem’s fined. It’s a matter of degree though. The final reckoning awaits the National Crime Agency’s investigation into Aaron Banks’s £8m etc. but much is known.
Those with some inclination to think for themselves, rather than whip themselves into a frenzy with Daily Mail headlines, can go to the Electoral Commission’s websites and look at their press releases.
Of particular importance:
aaron-banks,-better-for-the-country-and-others-refereed-to-the-national—crime-agency-for-multiple-suspected-offences 1st November 2018
vote-leave-fined-and-referred-to-the-police-for-breaking-electoral-law 17th June 2018 (£20000)
leave.eu-fined-for-multiple-breaches-of-electoral-law-following-investigation 11th May 2018, (£70000 fine)
liberal-democrats-fined-18000-for-breaches-of-campaign-finance-rules 19th December 2017 (this also explaining the minor £1250 fine for the official remain campaign for reporting some payments in aggregate and three missing invoices)
No doubt Ian won’t bother to consider the respective sums involved or where the criminal investigations are, and will view me offering this factual information as “propaganda”, whilst Ali will likely remain in denial about ever having been misled. Bless.
If Ali would stick to the facts and not get personal I might let his absurd and self-demeaning abhorrent cultural nonsense go.
It’s fairly clear who swallows and regurgitates propaganda. Can they open their eyes and reconsider?
Ali Inkster
Banks £8million is more than covered y the £9.3miilion booklet the government sent to every household warning of the dire consequences of leaving. Money which wasn’t even counted in the remain spending. So if we are calling foul based on spending then remain are by far the guiltier party.
ian tinkler
All the usual long-winded drivel from Peter. The bottom line 17 million voted to leave the EU, get over it, Peter. Your protracted mega-moan becomes a little tiresome. The UK electorate are not puppets on your imaginary strings — However, just a final thought for you to ponder. The EU open border policy is one of the most discriminatory, neo-racist policies imaginable, so very worthy of Trump at his worst. Be an EU citizen, free entry to the UK! Criminal record, no problem. No job prospect, no problem. No education, no problem. Now come from Turkey, highly educated, medical specialist, no way in!!! Be from the Commonwealth, forget it, you are just not welcome. In my last clinical practice, my highly qualified Orthodontically trained “dental nurse” was virtually expelled due to being a non-EU citizen (South African) (work permit and visa withdrawn after one year)!!! Ironic our South African pals fought Nazi Germany to help free Europe. So did Turkey for that matter!!! Think about that.
Ian Tinkler
Please not (Criminal record, no problem) should read usually no problem. (Most of Eastern Europe have no accurate Data basses).